'Strong women', in Star Wars and otherwise
Dec. 1st, 2003 06:54 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
owlI was browsing Livejournals at the weekend, and came across this post on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
maidenjedi's LJ.
Basically it asked for discussion on the female characters in Star Wars, and were they 'strong women'. In the comments, as well as poor opinions of the Prequel Trilogy and Lucas' film-making, there were comments such as:
What really got to me was that there was no need to introduce Beru like that. She's introduced as "my girlfriend Beru", has one line ("hello"), and she's, like, serving them blue milk! WTF?! She doesn't even live with these people!
I wonder if Beru's subjugation isn't part of Tatooine culture. It would have been interesting to see how Shmi Skywalker responded to and interacted with Clegg Lars.
Of course, the way Beru was introduced really fit with Owen's personality, which is/was domineering, short-sighted, and not a little xenophobic, IMHO. It doesn't excuse Beru's "little woman" portrayal, though.
So Beru is condemned on 30 seconds of screentime! Her character is ruined for ever because she, gasp, serves a drink to visitors who are probably tired and thirsty and are about to hear some very bad news The Larses have just been bereaved, remeber, and Cliegg lost his leg. It makes sense she'd be around to help out. Beru as far as we can tell is nurturing and feelings-orientated(F, in Myers-Briggs typology, maybe even NF). It makes perfect sense that she was the one who thought to get drinks, rather than the T Owen.
She's a frontier woman, she's married to a farmer. She's not some Stepford wife! I'm from a farming community myself, and whatever farmer's wives may be, they are not passive and spineless as a rule. Generally, as well as cooking, cleaning and child-rearing, they either hold down an outside job to supplement the farm income, or work as an unpaid farm worker (Not the very heaviest jobs, which physically a woman wouldn't be capable off, specially if she's childbearing, breast feeding or got a toddler in tow, but I have known farmer's wives keep the hens, drive tractors during silage-drawing, hand-rear lambs, feed calves, help with the milking, get up in the middle of the night during calving, as well as catering for vets, employees and contractors.) It's not an easy job, and it's just as important as the farmer's itself.
I have a great fondness for Owen and Beru. They are under-rated, maligned, ignored and ill-characterised by the fandom at large. We don't see much of them onscreen, but we do see their life's work, so to speak: Luke Skywalker. He is emotionally stable (consider what he goes through in the OT and still retains sanity and humanity), loving and compassionate to a fault, humble, unselfish, and is willing to sacrifice himself for his family. Tell me how someone could grow up like that without having been loved, and loved well.
Leia got off a little better, but:
Leia post-RotJ (and even, I think, to a great extent in RotJ) is pretty soft as well.
Leia very quickly loses her rough edges, becomes scarily domesticated by Ep VI. And for me the disconcerting thing - even as a kid - was that while she is Anakin's offspring as much as Luke is, she's never really brought into the whole destiny thing.
And watch as the entire point Leia's character arc in the OT is missed. She and Han were in ANH both cut off from love in differnet ways; Han by his selfishness, Leia by her idealism and single focus on the rebel cause. They grow together during the trilogy.
Padmé got off badly too, due to having the misfortune to fall in love with a future Sith Lord. The black corset affair was much debated, but as I don't have a baldy what Padmé was playing at by wearing it, I shall leave that issue alone.
As for the EU:
I haven't read any Star Wars books, but I've played a lot of the video games. Women in those seem to always be "fighters" of some type, fighting alongside your character or others. Jedi Knight has female Jedis fighting with you, which is pretty cool. Episode II showed that women are bounty hunters/assasins just like men.
Mara Jade was phenomenally strong is most of the books I'd read, and I remain a fan. Can't speak to her NJO incarnation, but I do think she was one of the best done female characters in the EU. She worked especially well due to her independence from *any* of the organizations.
Oh, spare us. I don't consider Mara Jade a strong woman at all. Emotionally, she's brittle. Perhaps that looks superficially like strong to some, including the attitude from hell. She has no 'feminine' characteritics whatsoever. Someone propsed the fact that Zahn was writing her as a male substitute, to allow him to have Luke in a slash relationship without having Lucasfilm kill him, and I have to say it makes sense. She's certainly the dominating partner in the LEUke/Mara marriage.
As for the 'fighters': Why can a woman only be considered 'strong' if she's exactly like the stereotype of a man? That's just as demeaning as keeping her barefoot in the kitchen. There is nothing wrong with being able to take care of yourself, it's positive, but why is it considered 'weak' to have stereotypically female characteristics like caring for one's family, having a nurturing personality, even being able to cook? I think that all human beings should have both 'masculine' and 'feminine' characteristics to some degree. The macho macho macho man and the giggling inept female are both incomplete charicatures of humanity. I find it odd that certain feminists, while despising men, attempt to make women into the image of a man.
*uses ironically appropriate 'nice men' icon*
maidenjedi's LJ.Basically it asked for discussion on the female characters in Star Wars, and were they 'strong women'. In the comments, as well as poor opinions of the Prequel Trilogy and Lucas' film-making, there were comments such as:
What really got to me was that there was no need to introduce Beru like that. She's introduced as "my girlfriend Beru", has one line ("hello"), and she's, like, serving them blue milk! WTF?! She doesn't even live with these people!
I wonder if Beru's subjugation isn't part of Tatooine culture. It would have been interesting to see how Shmi Skywalker responded to and interacted with Clegg Lars.
Of course, the way Beru was introduced really fit with Owen's personality, which is/was domineering, short-sighted, and not a little xenophobic, IMHO. It doesn't excuse Beru's "little woman" portrayal, though.
So Beru is condemned on 30 seconds of screentime! Her character is ruined for ever because she, gasp, serves a drink to visitors who are probably tired and thirsty and are about to hear some very bad news The Larses have just been bereaved, remeber, and Cliegg lost his leg. It makes sense she'd be around to help out. Beru as far as we can tell is nurturing and feelings-orientated(F, in Myers-Briggs typology, maybe even NF). It makes perfect sense that she was the one who thought to get drinks, rather than the T Owen.
She's a frontier woman, she's married to a farmer. She's not some Stepford wife! I'm from a farming community myself, and whatever farmer's wives may be, they are not passive and spineless as a rule. Generally, as well as cooking, cleaning and child-rearing, they either hold down an outside job to supplement the farm income, or work as an unpaid farm worker (Not the very heaviest jobs, which physically a woman wouldn't be capable off, specially if she's childbearing, breast feeding or got a toddler in tow, but I have known farmer's wives keep the hens, drive tractors during silage-drawing, hand-rear lambs, feed calves, help with the milking, get up in the middle of the night during calving, as well as catering for vets, employees and contractors.) It's not an easy job, and it's just as important as the farmer's itself.
I have a great fondness for Owen and Beru. They are under-rated, maligned, ignored and ill-characterised by the fandom at large. We don't see much of them onscreen, but we do see their life's work, so to speak: Luke Skywalker. He is emotionally stable (consider what he goes through in the OT and still retains sanity and humanity), loving and compassionate to a fault, humble, unselfish, and is willing to sacrifice himself for his family. Tell me how someone could grow up like that without having been loved, and loved well.
Leia got off a little better, but:
Leia post-RotJ (and even, I think, to a great extent in RotJ) is pretty soft as well.
Leia very quickly loses her rough edges, becomes scarily domesticated by Ep VI. And for me the disconcerting thing - even as a kid - was that while she is Anakin's offspring as much as Luke is, she's never really brought into the whole destiny thing.
And watch as the entire point Leia's character arc in the OT is missed. She and Han were in ANH both cut off from love in differnet ways; Han by his selfishness, Leia by her idealism and single focus on the rebel cause. They grow together during the trilogy.
Padmé got off badly too, due to having the misfortune to fall in love with a future Sith Lord. The black corset affair was much debated, but as I don't have a baldy what Padmé was playing at by wearing it, I shall leave that issue alone.
As for the EU:
I haven't read any Star Wars books, but I've played a lot of the video games. Women in those seem to always be "fighters" of some type, fighting alongside your character or others. Jedi Knight has female Jedis fighting with you, which is pretty cool. Episode II showed that women are bounty hunters/assasins just like men.
Mara Jade was phenomenally strong is most of the books I'd read, and I remain a fan. Can't speak to her NJO incarnation, but I do think she was one of the best done female characters in the EU. She worked especially well due to her independence from *any* of the organizations.
Oh, spare us. I don't consider Mara Jade a strong woman at all. Emotionally, she's brittle. Perhaps that looks superficially like strong to some, including the attitude from hell. She has no 'feminine' characteritics whatsoever. Someone propsed the fact that Zahn was writing her as a male substitute, to allow him to have Luke in a slash relationship without having Lucasfilm kill him, and I have to say it makes sense. She's certainly the dominating partner in the LEUke/Mara marriage.
As for the 'fighters': Why can a woman only be considered 'strong' if she's exactly like the stereotype of a man? That's just as demeaning as keeping her barefoot in the kitchen. There is nothing wrong with being able to take care of yourself, it's positive, but why is it considered 'weak' to have stereotypically female characteristics like caring for one's family, having a nurturing personality, even being able to cook? I think that all human beings should have both 'masculine' and 'feminine' characteristics to some degree. The macho macho macho man and the giggling inept female are both incomplete charicatures of humanity. I find it odd that certain feminists, while despising men, attempt to make women into the image of a man.
*uses ironically appropriate 'nice men' icon*
no subject
Date: 2003-12-01 09:59 pm (UTC)Now, Mara Jade. First of all, there is no reason, in the original Zahn incarnation, for her to be the least bit "feminine". She survived the *Emperor*, which is more than most everyone (including Anakin) can say. But beyond that, consider her upbringing and her situation. She's a Force-sensitive who doesn't have Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda looking after her, but a Sith Lord with a galaxy at his command. A Sith Lord who hoodwinked the vaunted Jedi Council before revealing himself and killing the Jedi off. That's power, and it's scary power. Mara Jade was brought up and trained with one agenda: to take out Luke Skywalker. She has no reason to have any feminine affectations.
I take real objection to the idea that a woman who cooks is not a "strong" or "real" woman. But in a fictional universe that promotes multiculturism and is constantly reminding us where prejudice gets us, equality between the sexes seems imperative. The only excuse for Beru's docile, subjective nature is basic cultural anthropology (she has no authority in Luke's life, that's very clear, so while I'm sure she was quite loving and very much the farmer's wife, I wonder what kind of husband Luke might have made had he never gone chasing after Leia). Beru is only one example of the women in the Star Wars universe; you point out in detail that she's a farmer's wife, she lives on a frontier, and therefore she's going to be a very different type of woman than Padme and Leia (brought up with the idea that women can and should be instrumental in governing and decision-making) or Mara Jade (brought up without female influence, under a violent and demanding father-figure).
no subject
Date: 2003-12-01 11:05 pm (UTC)I don't interpret Beru that way. I think she knows that living with Owen, yelling isn't going to get her anywhere. Patience is her virtue. She can be very strong and wise (remember that she's more in tune with Luke?) without being loud and agressive.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 06:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 07:26 am (UTC)So to get back to a point made in Cat's original post, I don't think that Mara is necessarily the dominating partner in her marriage with Luke. I think they're equal partners; it's just that Mara is more of an ostensibly putting her foot down "don't mess with me" kind of person, and Luke has more of a gentle strength. Normally, you'd associate "putting your foot down" with the male (husband), and gentle strength with the wife (female); which I think is why some people see the L/M relationship as "she's a castrating bitch who wears the pants and has him under her thumb", or (to use the comparison that Cat brought up) as the equivalent of a slash relationship where Mara is the seme, and Luke is the uke.
But I don't think that's the case, or at least it's not all there is to their relationship. Having 'gentle strength' doesn't mean that a men is "castrated" or unmanly (IMHO), it just means that he's a man who happens to be gentle, or in other words, has a quality, a 'flavor' of strength, that's normally associated with the feminine. But it's strength nevertheless.
Who's the more gentle in a relationship, and who's the more aggressive, isn't the be-all and end-all of the actual power balance. Think of Kunti in the Mahabharata - she was a gentle person who never once tried to "wear the pants", never once tried to leave the female role as defined by the culture she lived in, but her sons (who were heavy-duty warriors, mind you) listened to her. And I guarantee you, no matter how assertive Mara may be on the outside, if there's one person she listens to, it's Luke. If there's one person who can make her do something, it's him. It's just that he doesn't do it by means of "because I'm the husband and I say so!" But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot of power, a lot of influence, in her life. I mean, Mara started off as a fanatic Imperial, and now she's a Jedi (or trying to be, anyhow - whether she's worthy of being a Jedi (Master) is a can of worms that I refuse of open in this context). That's a big change to make. And why did she make such big changes? Right, because Luke came into her life. He made her change much more than she made him change (he was a Jedi when he met her, and now he's still a Jedi). So who of them really had/has more power in the other's life?
And then, there's that little DW quote about her calling him "master" sometimes (not him calling her "mistress", mind you) ... ;-)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 07:09 am (UTC)As for Mara: she was fine till Zahn decided to match her with Luke, which for some reason involved retconning her original dark past, and thus making her less interesting. I don't think she's suited to Luke anyway; they have both had traumatic pasts and are damaged in some way, and the way the NJO is written she has him on a string. Mara would be better off married to someone who would fight back, ala Han and Leia. Luke's too gentle to do that, and ends up written as Jedi doormat. Poor Luke...
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 08:14 am (UTC)Re: Mara. See, if Zahn had never hinted at or drawn Luke and Mara together, the fanfiction people would have. That always seems to be rule; the more angst-driven and unlikely the pairing, the more popular in fanfiction. Now, I don't know if that holds true in SW fandom, but in the other fandoms I'm involved in all seem to have a similar trend inherent in some corner. Zahn just beat the fanfiction writers to their own game, maybe. I don't see Mara as any less interesting in light of her relationship with Luke - one could successfully argue that Leia is less interesting once she and Han are established (post-Jabba's palace). I do think that it was important for Luke to be put into a relationship to get an idea of how romantic love and Jedi philosophy actually coexist, at least in light of the revelation that pre-Empire Jedi are not allowed to love (in that sense). Eh. To each his own.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 04:32 pm (UTC)My dislike of Mara actually doesn't have anything to do with her lack of feminine qualities. I just don't like her. I think she's a mary-sue. Tragic past, ends up married to the leading man, gorgeous with bright red hair, disrespects authority figures at every turn without reprocussions?
But I stray from my point. My point is that I don't really have too much of an opinion concerning whether she's a strong woman. I definetely think her life lacks balance, but whether or not that makes her weak is still in the air.